I got a bit irritated today. I hate getting irritated, I want to agree with everyone, but sometimes I feel they are wrong. When I feel that I get irritated with myself... why can't I just let it be? So what was all this about?
Well, it may seem trivial but it was about whether Jesus, since he was perfect, could have given in to temptation. The person I was talking with was asserting that since Jesus was God he could not have given in to the temptation and sinned. He is one of the elders of a local structural church and he was saying he would have to correct one of the other elders of this church who had been 'preaching' this morning and had asserted that Jesus did have choice and could have given in to temptation.
Now this is something that comes to the heart of being on a relational journey. The heart of a relationship is two or more personalities relating to each other. To be a being with a personality you must have choice. It's to communicate face-to-face. It's why God gave us choice so we could relate to each other and to Him. Without giving us choice we would have been like puppets or automata unable to truly relate to Him.
Satan was created perfect, had choice, decided to reject God and fell into sin. Adam and Eve were created perfect, had choice, decided to reject God and fell into sin. To be perfect doesn't imply the impossibility of doing something wrong. To have personality implies choice.
That choice is something God has too, otherwise He would not have a personality and be able to relate to us. Abraham talked with God and changed God's mind. God enjoys us talking with him. That's what it's all about, a two way relationship between God and man. Something enjoyable. Something that pleases our Father's heart. God loves this relationship. It's the most important thing to Him.
So, if God has the ability to chose then Jesus also has the ability to chose. To imply that since He is perfect He had no choice demeans God to being less than He is. He could have chosen to give into those temptations but he chose not to. He has a personality. Since he is perfect, the probability of Him choosing to give in to temptation was so unlikely as to be almost impossible, but we know from the record of the time before and during Gethsemane that he was troubled and wished for the cup to be removed. The scriptures talk of perspiration like blood on His body since He was so troubled. Yet He chose to go forward in His father's will.
To suggest that He could not have given in to temptation because He is perfect reduces God to an automata without personality and choice. It makes Him part of a mechanistic system. Religion. And that's what I believe to be the antithesis to being on a relational journey with our Father. The example this elder gave was like the Forth Bridge which they apparently load tested with way more than would ever be expected to prove it would stand not to test whether it would.
And that's why I got irritated. I don't like it when God's changed from a relational being to a systematized force. He cannot be compared to a structure like a bridge. He has personality and choice. It misleads people back into religion to imply that since we are created in His image, our choice doesn't reflect His choice, our personality doesn't reflect his personality. We are now fallen beings, but created in the image of a perfect God. We are not God or gods, we are created beings with personality and choice. Just as Jesus, our Father and the Spirit are eternal beings with personality and choice.
Sunday, August 2, 2009
Tuesday, July 28, 2009
Another question - accountability relationships
This question came when I was talking to a colleague in another country: 'If you don't go to church aren't you in danger of missing out on accountability relationships?'
There are two parts to my answer to this one: Firstly, being a relational follower of Jesus enhances and strengthens mutual accountability and secondly I am not sure that what 'Evangelicals' call accountability relationships are either Biblically sound or healthy.
Let me unpack those a little. What I see the early followers of Jesus doing through Scripture and a healthy model to follow is sharing their lives with each other. That sharing 'held them accountable' if you like, but in a mutual transparency relationship not a hierarchical accountability relationship.
When I discussed accountability with people who believe in it we always get down to where the rubber hits the road... and that is when the person in an accountability relationship to someone over him/her believes the Lord is leading in a different way to the one their accountability leader believes. Those people who believe in this sort of structure tell me that the person should always do what their leader believes.
I have two problems with this - firstly it is abdicating responsibility ('I'm only doing what I was told to do') and secondly we observe in real life that just doesn't happen. How many people have we known who have left their wives, knowing it is wrong, because 'the Lord told me to' or some such statement? So basically accountability relationships don't work and if they did work they would be wrong.
But back to the core of living life as a relational journey. In that context, we aim to walk alongside Jesus and others on the journey sharing our lives in transparency with Him and with them. This is a much more healthy walk than attending a number of meetings every week. I have a colleague who says that one of the main problems with 'church' is that it focuses on 'sin management'. A relational journey focuses on the Lord.
There are two parts to my answer to this one: Firstly, being a relational follower of Jesus enhances and strengthens mutual accountability and secondly I am not sure that what 'Evangelicals' call accountability relationships are either Biblically sound or healthy.
Let me unpack those a little. What I see the early followers of Jesus doing through Scripture and a healthy model to follow is sharing their lives with each other. That sharing 'held them accountable' if you like, but in a mutual transparency relationship not a hierarchical accountability relationship.
When I discussed accountability with people who believe in it we always get down to where the rubber hits the road... and that is when the person in an accountability relationship to someone over him/her believes the Lord is leading in a different way to the one their accountability leader believes. Those people who believe in this sort of structure tell me that the person should always do what their leader believes.
I have two problems with this - firstly it is abdicating responsibility ('I'm only doing what I was told to do') and secondly we observe in real life that just doesn't happen. How many people have we known who have left their wives, knowing it is wrong, because 'the Lord told me to' or some such statement? So basically accountability relationships don't work and if they did work they would be wrong.
But back to the core of living life as a relational journey. In that context, we aim to walk alongside Jesus and others on the journey sharing our lives in transparency with Him and with them. This is a much more healthy walk than attending a number of meetings every week. I have a colleague who says that one of the main problems with 'church' is that it focuses on 'sin management'. A relational journey focuses on the Lord.
Sunday, June 28, 2009
Why I Don't Go To Church Anymore: Living as a Relational follower of Jesus
For a few years now I have been getting increasingly bothered about 'church'. I started another blog to help me think through the issues. I felt that some of what I was writing there was somewhat negative and just recently came to the conclusion that for a while at least and maybe the rest of my life I will not 'go to church'. This was a positive decision bringing peace to what had been a troubled soul. But I have been getting tired of questions from well meaning believers who don't really understand. Having said that I am finding an increasing number of people who would call themselves 'followers of Jesus' in a similar position.
One person who has walked this path longer than many is Wayne Jacobsen and it was reading his explanation that made me decide two things:
Where do you go to church?
I have been increasingly convinced that church should be seen as a verb rather than a noun. It's not a place, group or event but something we do together as followers of the Messiah. The Lord said 'Wherever there are two or three gathered together, I am there in their midst.' So whenever we meet as disciples or followers of Jesus we are churching together.
Hence I could answer the question 'Where do you go to church?' with the answer at the office, in a coffee shop, when I am out sailing, at my or someone else's home... and occasionally on a Sunday morning or evening at a building we call a church.
Are you just trying to avoid the question?
There are two parts to my answer to this:
There is an issue with language. Words change over time and are modified by people to mean different things. So the word 'church' would have had an idea behind it to the very first followers of Jesus, which might be very different to the idea that we have today. Because of that I understand that the question 'Where do you go to church?' has come to mean 'Where do you go on a Sunday morning and what do you believe?' It's almost a test question to see if I agree with your theology.
So by answering the question using the word church as a verb not a noun I am avoiding the meaning behind the question. But I chose to be one of a group of people worldwide who are seeing a new meaning to churching together emerging.
The second part of my answer relates to the original meaning of the word church as a noun that I believe we have in many ways lost. When Jesus used the phrase 'I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it' He obviously did not mean a red brick building seen in many English towns and cities. His meaning was related to a gathering of his disciples. What is notable about Jesus use of the word church is that he doesn't define it. We have taken that upon ourselves.
I think that Jesus would probably have answered the question 'Where do you go to church?' in a similar way to the way he answered those accusing the woman caught in the act of adultery. He would have continued drawing in the dirt and come up a clever comment that would have helped us see that church is not about a Sunday club or a structured fellowship event, but about our relationship with Him and with each other.
He might well have added 'Let him who has the perfect church invite you'.
But don't we need regular fellowship?
Absolutely, and in some ways that is the reason that I have ceased going to church. I need fellowship. I do not need to stand in rows singing songs and listen on someone talk about their interpretation of a book.
Fellowship is an essential part of walking the path of a disciple of Jesus. We can only do it in community.
There is also a second part to my answer to this question. If we meet three times a year for fellowship that is regular but infrequent. What I believe we need is not regular fellowship, but frequent fellowship.
Shouldn't we be committed to a local fellowship?
My problem with this question is the word 'a' local fellowship. I believe this causes division between those who follow Jesus. We end up boxing people in the way they answer the question 'Where do you go to church?' rather than seeking to fellowship with them in the locality.
So I strongly believe we should be committed to fellowship, both local and worldwide. My issue is with the institution of the 'church' as a structure being the core of how we fellowship together.
But don't our institutions keep us from error?
I wish that were true but it's not. They can keep us from error or they can lead us into error. Most of the major heresies through the ages have come out of an institution. In the end we are accountable to God, not to man. Man's structures often lead us astray.
So are traditional congregations wrong?
Don't get me wrong, there are many excellent groups of people who are linked together through some sort of structural church and who do share fellowship through that structure. I am linked with some in the UK. But that we must be committed to a single local structure that observably tends to be divisive in places I believe to be an error not seen in Scripture.
So should I stop going to church, too?
No, you are still missing how I see things. 'Going to church' or 'not going to church' is not the issue. The issue is how we relate to others who follow Jesus.
Then meeting in homes is the answer?
This question still looks at the structure rather than the relationship. I meet in homes, coffee shops, offices and many other places to church with people. The location is not the key, the relationship is the key.
Aren't you just reacting out of hurt?
Well, it is true that I have been hurt by structural churches, but I have also been blessed by them. It may be that I am reacting from hurt, but in this walk with Jesus I have, in recent times, changed and hence the change of blog. I am now looking at this as a positive step in my walk with the Messiah rather than a negative reaction.
Are you looking for the perfect church?
No, I am not looking for a structural church at all. I am looking for fellowship and relationships with people that help me to grow in my walk with the Lord. When I looked at my learning styles I did find that they did not match with almost any structural church, and I know there are others like me.
But don't our children need church activities?
The Sunday club we call church can provide excellent activities for children. They also tend to be almost parallels with school - we call them 'Sunday Schools'. I do not believe that school is good for all children.
We home-educated our children and for many families I believe this is better than school. Home-educated children tend to relate better to other children and adults. In the same way church activities for children can be a help or hindrance to our children. The key is that they do not need to know about God, they need to know God and introducing them to Him is better than teaching them about Him. He is, after all, our Father.
What dynamics of body life do you look for?
The question is one that is almost impossible to answer. I am looking to follow Jesus as He called us to. I am looking for authentic relationships with others who are on the journey, what form that will take can be as varied as those on the path.
Years ago I was told by some well meaning people that Heaven was like an eternal church service. It was almost enough to put me off following Jesus for good. Some people find God through them, others are not helped. I am looking for something that I can feel and react positively about.
Aren't you giving people an excuse to sit home and do nothing?
My experience with people who call themselves relational followers of Jesus is that they are more involved with others and with their community than less. Many who are tied into structural church are very involved with the activities of the church rather than with other people.
The aim is not to get people to events or meetings, but to introduce them into a living relationship with God the Father. That can only be done through relationship not sitting at home nor church activities.
Isn't this view of church divisive?
No, I think and see this to be less divisive than structural church. It allows us to relate to people without boxing them according to which place they go to on a Sunday morning!
Where can I find that kind of fellowship?
This question too suggests that the kind of fellowship is geographically located. I find it as I talk and walk with Jesus.
One person who has walked this path longer than many is Wayne Jacobsen and it was reading his explanation that made me decide two things:
- I would like to try to answer the same questions that he answered but for myself
- I needed to start a new blog that was positive about my walk with the Lord rather than questioning or maybe negative
Where do you go to church?
I have been increasingly convinced that church should be seen as a verb rather than a noun. It's not a place, group or event but something we do together as followers of the Messiah. The Lord said 'Wherever there are two or three gathered together, I am there in their midst.' So whenever we meet as disciples or followers of Jesus we are churching together.
Hence I could answer the question 'Where do you go to church?' with the answer at the office, in a coffee shop, when I am out sailing, at my or someone else's home... and occasionally on a Sunday morning or evening at a building we call a church.
Are you just trying to avoid the question?
There are two parts to my answer to this:
There is an issue with language. Words change over time and are modified by people to mean different things. So the word 'church' would have had an idea behind it to the very first followers of Jesus, which might be very different to the idea that we have today. Because of that I understand that the question 'Where do you go to church?' has come to mean 'Where do you go on a Sunday morning and what do you believe?' It's almost a test question to see if I agree with your theology.
So by answering the question using the word church as a verb not a noun I am avoiding the meaning behind the question. But I chose to be one of a group of people worldwide who are seeing a new meaning to churching together emerging.
The second part of my answer relates to the original meaning of the word church as a noun that I believe we have in many ways lost. When Jesus used the phrase 'I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it' He obviously did not mean a red brick building seen in many English towns and cities. His meaning was related to a gathering of his disciples. What is notable about Jesus use of the word church is that he doesn't define it. We have taken that upon ourselves.
I think that Jesus would probably have answered the question 'Where do you go to church?' in a similar way to the way he answered those accusing the woman caught in the act of adultery. He would have continued drawing in the dirt and come up a clever comment that would have helped us see that church is not about a Sunday club or a structured fellowship event, but about our relationship with Him and with each other.
He might well have added 'Let him who has the perfect church invite you'.
But don't we need regular fellowship?
Absolutely, and in some ways that is the reason that I have ceased going to church. I need fellowship. I do not need to stand in rows singing songs and listen on someone talk about their interpretation of a book.
Fellowship is an essential part of walking the path of a disciple of Jesus. We can only do it in community.
There is also a second part to my answer to this question. If we meet three times a year for fellowship that is regular but infrequent. What I believe we need is not regular fellowship, but frequent fellowship.
Shouldn't we be committed to a local fellowship?
My problem with this question is the word 'a' local fellowship. I believe this causes division between those who follow Jesus. We end up boxing people in the way they answer the question 'Where do you go to church?' rather than seeking to fellowship with them in the locality.
So I strongly believe we should be committed to fellowship, both local and worldwide. My issue is with the institution of the 'church' as a structure being the core of how we fellowship together.
But don't our institutions keep us from error?
I wish that were true but it's not. They can keep us from error or they can lead us into error. Most of the major heresies through the ages have come out of an institution. In the end we are accountable to God, not to man. Man's structures often lead us astray.
So are traditional congregations wrong?
Don't get me wrong, there are many excellent groups of people who are linked together through some sort of structural church and who do share fellowship through that structure. I am linked with some in the UK. But that we must be committed to a single local structure that observably tends to be divisive in places I believe to be an error not seen in Scripture.
So should I stop going to church, too?
No, you are still missing how I see things. 'Going to church' or 'not going to church' is not the issue. The issue is how we relate to others who follow Jesus.
Then meeting in homes is the answer?
This question still looks at the structure rather than the relationship. I meet in homes, coffee shops, offices and many other places to church with people. The location is not the key, the relationship is the key.
Aren't you just reacting out of hurt?
Well, it is true that I have been hurt by structural churches, but I have also been blessed by them. It may be that I am reacting from hurt, but in this walk with Jesus I have, in recent times, changed and hence the change of blog. I am now looking at this as a positive step in my walk with the Messiah rather than a negative reaction.
Are you looking for the perfect church?
No, I am not looking for a structural church at all. I am looking for fellowship and relationships with people that help me to grow in my walk with the Lord. When I looked at my learning styles I did find that they did not match with almost any structural church, and I know there are others like me.
But don't our children need church activities?
The Sunday club we call church can provide excellent activities for children. They also tend to be almost parallels with school - we call them 'Sunday Schools'. I do not believe that school is good for all children.
We home-educated our children and for many families I believe this is better than school. Home-educated children tend to relate better to other children and adults. In the same way church activities for children can be a help or hindrance to our children. The key is that they do not need to know about God, they need to know God and introducing them to Him is better than teaching them about Him. He is, after all, our Father.
What dynamics of body life do you look for?
The question is one that is almost impossible to answer. I am looking to follow Jesus as He called us to. I am looking for authentic relationships with others who are on the journey, what form that will take can be as varied as those on the path.
Years ago I was told by some well meaning people that Heaven was like an eternal church service. It was almost enough to put me off following Jesus for good. Some people find God through them, others are not helped. I am looking for something that I can feel and react positively about.
Aren't you giving people an excuse to sit home and do nothing?
My experience with people who call themselves relational followers of Jesus is that they are more involved with others and with their community than less. Many who are tied into structural church are very involved with the activities of the church rather than with other people.
The aim is not to get people to events or meetings, but to introduce them into a living relationship with God the Father. That can only be done through relationship not sitting at home nor church activities.
Isn't this view of church divisive?
No, I think and see this to be less divisive than structural church. It allows us to relate to people without boxing them according to which place they go to on a Sunday morning!
Where can I find that kind of fellowship?
This question too suggests that the kind of fellowship is geographically located. I find it as I talk and walk with Jesus.
Monday, January 1, 2001
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relationaljourney.blogspot.com does not share any personally identifiable information provided by visitors with third parties, unless you ask me to, and will never sell it to anyone. However, relationaljourney.blogspot.com bears no responsibility for any action or policies of third parties who collect any information visitors may disclose on bulletin boards, chat areas, public forums, or other websites linked from within this website.
Third party advertisements are shown on relationaljourney.blogspot.com, and general tracking programs are used to observe trends amongst visitors. Some of these may use technology such as cookies and web beacons. A cookie is a piece of information that is transferred to a visitor's hard drive for record-keeping purposes, and a web beacon is a tiny transparent image on the page which allows the site to record the simple actions of visitors when opening the pages.
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You can chose to disable or selectively turn off cookies in your browser settings. However, this can affect how you are able to interact with this site as well as other websites. This could include the inability to login to services or programs, such as logging into forums or accounts.
Google Analytics is used to help determine trends and interests of visitors. The Google Analytics site explains the type of data collected. Other site trackers are used, giving similar data; the sidebar of the blog shows which ones are currently being used. You can click the links to find out what kind of data they collect.
All advertisements are from affiliate services, and are contextual: based on the page contents, the location of the visitor, and the cookies already residing on the visitor's computer. Though relationaljourney.blogspot.com is not responsible for their privacy terms, these links are to the privacy statements of the advertising affiliates, for your information:
relationaljourney.blogspot.com reserves the right to modify, alter or otherwise update this policy at any time, so visitors are encouraged to review this policy from time to time. Policy last update on 28th April 2009, based on the sample privacy policy provided by http://cypruslife.blogspot.com/.
I recognise that the privacy of your personal information is important. Below are details on the kind of personal information received when you visit, and how it is safeguarded.
All information collected on this website by relationaljourney.blogspot.com and/or its affiliated companies will be used primarily for internal purposes and/or to enhance visitor enjoyment and experience. I may also use email addresses or other personally identifiable information to contact visitors who directly communicate with me, for example, to respond to visitors' questions. Any such contact by the author of relationaljourney.blogspot.com is deemed by you to be at your request and with your permission, and shall be deemed by the parties, respectively, to be in compliance with all anti-spamming laws.
relationaljourney.blogspot.com does not share any personally identifiable information provided by visitors with third parties, unless you ask me to, and will never sell it to anyone. However, relationaljourney.blogspot.com bears no responsibility for any action or policies of third parties who collect any information visitors may disclose on bulletin boards, chat areas, public forums, or other websites linked from within this website.
Third party advertisements are shown on relationaljourney.blogspot.com, and general tracking programs are used to observe trends amongst visitors. Some of these may use technology such as cookies and web beacons. A cookie is a piece of information that is transferred to a visitor's hard drive for record-keeping purposes, and a web beacon is a tiny transparent image on the page which allows the site to record the simple actions of visitors when opening the pages.
These cookies and web beacons will send information to the advertisers and other affiliates, including your IP address, your Internet service provider, the country where you reside , the browser you used to visit our site, and in some cases, whether or not you have certain software (such as Flash or Javascript) installed. They are generally used for geo-targeting purposes (showing British ads to someone living in the UK, for instance) or showing certain adverts based on specific sites visited, such as showing dog-training adverts to someone who frequents dog-training sites.
relationaljourney.blogspot.com may also may use DART cookies for ad serving through Google’s DoubleClick, which places a cookie on your computer when you are browsing the web and visit a site using DoubleClick advertising (including some Google AdSense advertisements). This cookie is used to serve ads specific to you and your interests ('interest based targeting'). The ads served will be targeted based on your previous browsing history (For example, if you have been viewing sites about visiting London, you may see London hotel advertisements when viewing a non-related site, such as on a site about Cyprus).
DART uses 'non personally identifiable information'. It does NOT track personal information about you, such as your name, email address, physical address, telephone number, social security numbers, bank account numbers or credit card numbers. You can opt-out of this ad serving on all sites using this advertising by visiting http://www.doubleclick.com/privacy/dart_adserving.aspx
You can chose to disable or selectively turn off cookies in your browser settings. However, this can affect how you are able to interact with this site as well as other websites. This could include the inability to login to services or programs, such as logging into forums or accounts.
Google Analytics is used to help determine trends and interests of visitors. The Google Analytics site explains the type of data collected. Other site trackers are used, giving similar data; the sidebar of the blog shows which ones are currently being used. You can click the links to find out what kind of data they collect.
All advertisements are from affiliate services, and are contextual: based on the page contents, the location of the visitor, and the cookies already residing on the visitor's computer. Though relationaljourney.blogspot.com is not responsible for their privacy terms, these links are to the privacy statements of the advertising affiliates, for your information:
relationaljourney.blogspot.com reserves the right to modify, alter or otherwise update this policy at any time, so visitors are encouraged to review this policy from time to time. Policy last update on 28th April 2009, based on the sample privacy policy provided by http://cypruslife.blogspot.com/.
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